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Seeking drum recording advice

 
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beht



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 885
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Seeking drum recording advice Reply with quote

Hi all,

I'm having to rent a space to put drums over keys and guitar. Now that I have no problem with. But I will be recording on the DPS, and therefore the space I'm thinking of renting is a rehearsal space, meaning there are other bands next door rehearsing. When I was there looking at it, even with their door and my door closed, well, I could certainly hear that band!

Now if I were with a full band and we just started playing, obviously there would be no problem. Also, if I were recording flute or vocals, there would definitely be a problem.

But I'm wondering: might drums be less of a problem simply because they're so loud, and the gain might be so much lower? Does anybody have any experience with this. For myself, I don't mind certain background noises during recording if the thing I'm recording blots it out. Example: headphone bleed through into the track you're recording: who cares? It's so hilariously minimal, that the only time you hear it is when there's dead air, which I can then go and edit out.

But a band next door is pretty loud, so, concerning drums specifically, does it still pose a problem?
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Peakly



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 1969
Location: Northern Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wondering if it might be more of a problem than you're thinking it will be...

They'll likely be in different keys than your music, and since drums aren't a constant tone, like sustaining guitar or keys, some of their band will probably end up on your drum tracks.

That's a tough one. Is that the only space you can do the drum recording in?

Mychal
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beht



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 885
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it's not the only space. But I want to rent a space for a full month, rather than hourly. Setting up drums and 8 or 10 mics, spending hours getting the sounds right, etc., tearing down and setting up each time I go I decided is NOT an option. This way I get to just leave everything as it was and when I come back, everything's there.

And they are hourly bands near me, while I'm monthly, so they won't always be there. Then again, there could be times where there'll be two bands! I just figure(d) that let's say I'm recording acoustic guitar, the gain on the mic has to be up there, and I imagine the gain for drums will be much further down, thus hopefully not picking up outside stuff too much.

Of course I could be wrong! I'll have to think about this.
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Peakly



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 1969
Location: Northern Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beht wrote:
I just figure(d) that let's say I'm recording acoustic guitar, the gain on the mic has to be up there, and I imagine the gain for drums will be much further down, thus hopefully not picking up outside stuff too much.

Yeah, it would also depend on what mics you're using, and how close.

I remember rehearsing with a band in one of those rehearsal spaces. Small room, good musicians, I figured everyone would be cool about levels. No way. The drummer hit like we were in a stadium, and everyone else cranked too. I thought I was going to go deaf - I wore earplugs the whole time, which I hate. So in my experience at least, bands can really be loud in those rehearsal spaces.

But like you said, if you can be there when you don't have anyone next to you, that would be good.
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Havlicek
Dps24 Guru


Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 8164
Location: East Hampton, NY

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a good chance that the volume difference between the drums you are recording and the band next door might not be a problem. You certainly aren't going to be able to do any ambient room mic stuff, but close-micing the drums and not using condensers should take care of the majority of bleed issues. Probably best to mic every drum and not share any mics between drums. You can always do some edits after tracking to clean up more audible bleed and then rely on masking when the rest of the tracks are added. It should be doable.

-john
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beht



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 885
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. John! Still here! Yay! Still using Deeps!??? I remember you once saying, "I will use my DPS into the ground." Is that still the case?

Anyway, that's what I was thinking - what you said. I did want to use overheads though. Maybe I could use them and just take them out later if I need to.

Another question: a friend of mine is offering me a room in her basement to do this for free. However she has people living in the basement in rooms and she says they won't mind during the day etc. but I'm not sure if she realizes what my drumming sounds like! So I was thinking sound foam. Does that really work that well?
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Cidy Zoo



Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 1444
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acopustic foam will improve the sound IN the room. It will no way stop sound from coming out of the room, or stop sound coming into the room. That requires soundproofing and that is expensive.

You can check it out here:

www.johnlsayers.com

http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics3.htm

I workied with these guys when building my studio.

~ WT
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pilbeam_mp62



Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 29
Location: England

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have to use an acoustic kit, or could you consider using Roland V-Drums.... The TD-30 module produces some great sounds and there are (I think) 8 individual outputs.... no problems with spill there....
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cmaffia



Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Posts: 997

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also software like Superior Drummer you can use. I had my DPS24 synched to a PC using Reaper which hosted Superior Drummer and it worked like a charm. You'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a real kit and the software. The saga you are going through sof far just to mic a kit doesn't sound like it will give you a high return. In addition, you will have to contend with getting a great sound, mic cancellation and all that other fun stuff that the software has already dealt with. In other words you may end with a not so great sound depending on the room, mics used etc. Also with software you can obviously manipulate a performance captured by MIDI or a MIDI file itself. Once you print to the DPS24, you're kind of limited in regards to editting a drum performance.Purchasing Superior Drummer or EZ Drummer is a long term small investment. It's affordable, you can add to it and use it in every future project without having to rent a room. Just my 2 cents.
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Cidy Zoo



Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 1444
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not being too midi saavy and not being a drummer, I am curious.

Can you use a V-kit to record (midi) parts that are then played back by Superior/EZ Drummer? Edited in Reaper, etc.?

~ WT
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Ian_Oz in_London



Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 985
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might still be problematic in setting it up, and stating the obvious but using gating on the drums can lessen the bleed from other instruments or even other parts of the kit.
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cmaffia



Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Posts: 997

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cidy Zoo wrote:
Not being too midi saavy and not being a drummer, I am curious.

Can you use a V-kit to record (midi) parts that are then played back by Superior/EZ Drummer? Edited in Reaper, etc.?

~ WT


Yes Bill.. and then some!

My DPS24 was synced to a PC via MIDI through my Layla24 (an external 96KHz audio interface unit).

I triggered Superior Drummer within Reaper with my Roland V-Drums and the MIDI performance was recorded in Reaper where it could be editted as well.

The Superior Drummer audio came out of the Layla24 into 2 channels of the DPS24 as did 2 channels of Propellerhead's Reason (I had my choice of either analog or ADAT connections from the Layla24 into the Deeps).

Here was the other nice thing about this setup. Since the DPS24 and the PC were already synched, I could use Reaper to record additonal audio tracks and bring the stereo submix into 2 channels on the DPS24 thus breaking the 24 track barrier. I could also record additional tracks on the DPS24, export them to WAV and import into Reaper for playback. Since I was in the DAW environment, I could then obviously integrate plugins and and VST instruments into my DPS projects all in realtime.

I had a project playing 24 tracks on the DPS24, 16 audio tracks in Reaper, a Superior Drummer MIDI performance & about 10 tracks from Reason all in realtime. Because nothing was bounced and and also in the MIDI format, I could still edit everything if I needed to. It really was a cool way to utilize the strengths of the PC and integrate it with the DPS. The ONLY thing that was a bitch was editting and file management. I had to edit in 3 places instead of one and I had to save a song in three files on 2 different machines (DPS24 project save, Reaper & Reason files saves). It really was the best of both worlds which allowed me to still mix in the DPS24 and maintain it's unique sound. You can now understand why it was sort of easy for me to go full DAW as I had one foot in it already.

Anyway, using this type of software for your drum tracks will obviously save you time and time is money.

However if you want to mic an accoustic kit for the experience and the fun of it all, then go for it!
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Cidy Zoo



Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 1444
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Might still be problematic in setting it up, and stating the obvious but using gating on the drums can lessen the bleed from other instruments or even other parts of the kit.


I would use the gates on playback after the perfromance is recorded. They are touchy and there is nothing they can't do during playback that they could do whilst recording. Much less danger of ruining a take that way.

~ WT
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Havlicek
Dps24 Guru


Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 8164
Location: East Hampton, NY

PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks guys. John! Still here! Yay! Still using Deeps!??? I remember you once saying, "I will use my DPS into the ground." Is that still the case?


Sure thing :) I've recorded a song here and there over the last couple of years just to keep the brain functioning and still (!) with the DPS24. I've got one cooking right now to feature the Key B Duo organ (I figured it was time to replace the Korg BX3, so I donated it to a local church who were THRILLED).



Quote:
Anyway, that's what I was thinking - what you said. I did want to use overheads though. Maybe I could use them and just take them out later if I need to.


Sure. Adding a pair of overheads doesn't change anything as long as those are recorded to separate tracks and not part of a drum submix that's recorded. That way, you can always take those tracks out. In a less-than-stellar sounding space, overheads are more likely than not going to sound just "ok" at best.

Quote:
Another question: a friend of mine is offering me a room in her basement to do this for free. However she has people living in the basement in rooms and she says they won't mind during the day etc. but I'm not sure if she realizes what my drumming sounds like! So I was thinking sound foam. Does that really work that well?


Foam is effective at killing certain reflections/resonances and not at all a "soundproofing" solution. The best rooms will usually have a combination of hard/reflective and soft/non-reverberant surfaces, tall ceilings and sometimes even non-parallel walls (the least important factor). Another way to tame some harsh ambience ("boxy" room sound") is to hang heavy blankets around the room in various places, and this "may" be more effective if the blankets are hung on stands diagonally across corners.

-john
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cmaffia



Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Posts: 997

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Half price for the holidays!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SupDrum2/
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beht



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 885
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I owned Roland TDs in the past and I sold them very quickly. Drums was my first instrument and I found I could NOT play the way I usually played, which severely limited what I could play. I've heard other drummers say the same thing, that you had to completely re-adapt your playing style, which will NOT be happening! I thought it was a great solution at the time and invested the money only to be very disappointed. Plus the sounds, realistic as they were were never quite right. Real drums is real drums. And also being a player of drums, there is no way I would turn to programming.

I'm actually pretty confident that as long as I close mic the entire kit, it should sound good if anything unpleasant gets onto the overheads. Besides, I'm looking into a new space that will not have the other band problem. I'm also renting some proper mics and preamps, so I think with a lot of setting up and getting the right sound, it should come out well. That original space is the best location, but I AM worried about other bands' playing getting onto my drum recording, so I think the best idea is to find a better spot!
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beht



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 885
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure thing :) I've recorded a song here and there over the last couple of years just to keep the brain functioning and still (!) with the DPS24. I've got one cooking right now to feature the Key B Duo organ (I figured it was time to replace the Korg BX3, so I donated it to a local church who were THRILLED).

Wow, cool! I forget how long I've had this machine - over 9 years! I still think of it as my new recording equipment though, believe it or not. I guess when sometimes an entire year passes without using it, it doesn't feel very old!
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beht



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 885
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the last TDs I had were the TD10s, so out of curiosity I've checked out the Td30s and now I'm wondering again. But I don't know if I wanna go through this again....Still, the video makes them look good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLpI8PC5cZ8
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Peakly



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 1969
Location: Northern Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beht wrote:
Real drums is real drums.

Yessir!

peteG
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pilbeam_mp62



Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 29
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilbeam_mp62 wrote:
Do you have to use an acoustic kit, or could you consider using Roland V-Drums.... The TD-30 module produces some great sounds and there are (I think) 8 individual outputs.... no problems with spill there....


I am resurrecting this thread just to say that today I sold my V-Drums. It's a sad day, Crying or Very sad but I hadn't been playing them much lately, and I badly need the space in my studio room to put some other gear.
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